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What Type of Key is This?


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#21 BLK

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 12:02 PM

[quote name='Foxcraft']The keys to work.....Like a twisted hobby.

BLK, those two ILCOS you listed, all I can find for ILCO are the ILCO IN3 and 33. Or are those the equal?

Where can an RU31 be purchased in the 999 (lowest setting)?

Lastly, correct me if I'm wrong all one has to be able to do is have the key filed or cut down to the lowest settings? I doubt a locksmith would, but in a few seconds their machine could cut one down to the lowest settings? Or if you have a key with at least one notch at the lowest and all the others cut at least a bit, then file all the rest down? quote]

IN3 and IN33 are nothing like A1012-60 or A1012-59A. RU31 is probably not the same either.

If you have old keys, you could easily file them down to the lowest cut and a little bit more to make a bump key out of them.

Another problem is breaking a key in a lock or geting one stuck and not being able to get them out. I feel certian that you would get to pay the locksmith's fee for either of those. Otherwise, knock yourself out! Enjoy bumping locks. It is fun.
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#22 Foxcraft

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 12:28 PM

Oh yes, I agree on having to pay if the key got stuck! And thats only right.

The Ilco numbers you wrote, what are they in IL ??

#23 BLK

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 12:39 PM


The Ilco numbers you wrote, what are they in IL ??


They are in my ILCO Catalog.
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#24 theopratr

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 01:03 PM

The ILCO reference numbers are given because there is no common reference name for the keys that you posted. They are uncommon because they are for a security minded master keyed series of locks. In actuality, the keys that you posted were not even the same keyway - notice the difference on the left face of the key, and the absence of a groove on the lower portion of the second key posted.

Please re-read the sections about the legality of bumping locks that don't belong to you... I'm not insinuating that your intentions are anything less than honorable, but if you're practicing on locks in dorms, an apartment building, etc. you are setting yourself up for felony charges, despite the fact that the lock you are trying to defeat may be on a door to your own room!

As for your keys, you're not likely to find them anywhere except a locksmith, who will probably have to order a large quantity of them. I don't think they are the keys that BLK has suggested as there are too many millings on the right side of the key. Even if they were, those keys are similarly generally unavailable.

#25 BLK

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 01:49 PM

I don't think they are the keys that BLK has suggested as there are too many millings on the right side of the key. Even if they were, those keys are similarly generally unavailable.


That is why I posted the number of the Grand Master. It should fit at least one of the of the 2 locks, maybe both.

Yep, straight to prison....:brickwall:
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#26 Foxcraft

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 09:29 PM

theopratr:

I'm not sure what you mean "not the same keyway?" It is the same key, as I picked that one as it has one of each of the 6 bumps that can be filed down.

I saw a video on youtube of a guy who showed how to make a bump key. Seemed very simple. Or is that not right the right way?

It would seem that as long as (and again I'm very new) you have a bunch of the same keys (differnet keys) to the same set of locks, and at least one groove is cut at the lowest, you if you have a key with all six grooves cut at least a bit, then all that's needed to be done is file down to the lowest on the other five on that key and the tops? Sounds simple, but with patience and time (both I have) it may work?

Legality I'm not worried about as the owner (my boss) has seen me and seems to doubt I can do it.

BTW, if it means anything, these are inside locks. The outside I a ramp and sliding door for my wheelchair.

#27 theopratr

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 11:24 PM

It seems as though you are correct about the keyway... I was thrown off by the quality of the photos, and I thought that the picture of the second side of the first key you posted had millings on it that it does not. In the end, they are the same.

Before you could make a bump key for your lock, given the situation, the key has to be conclusively identified. I can say with some certainty that the bump key that you're looking for is not available commercially. The blank, however, may be ordered; but first you need to figure out exactly what it is.

The way keys are identified goes something like this... if you were to saw off your key and dip it in ink and make an impression on a piece of paper, you'd get a keyway profile for your key. Fortunately, you can just measure and look instead of brutalizing your key, my example was for visualization purposes only. Here is an example of the most common key around, the Kwikset KW1.

Posted Image

The picture on the left is the right side of the key and the key profile for comparison, and on the right I have shaded in red the millings on the side of the key that are responsible for the shape of the profile.

For your key, I have identified a likely family of Russwin keys... the problem is, 14 of them exist that have a relatively similar pattern. To move past this point, you have to decide which one of them is your key exactly, as the pictures provided are a bit too small and grainy to take measurements off of.

Posted Image

My initial bets were on the 1N and 10N, but the exact separations and the curvatures of the cuts will be easier for you to decide on.

You can eliminate 3N, 4N, 5N, 7N and 8N from the running immediately because there isn't enough room between the bottom milling and the one above it on the right side of the keys. The 14N is actually looking pretty good now, but again... you look carefully and decide. Once you figure out which of the ILCO reference numbers your keys coincide with, we'll get you along the way to making a bump key.

#28 Foxcraft

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 10:41 AM

The past few days I've been thinking of this key I had made back when I first started, I was afraid I'd loose my key so I had an extra made. Took it to a shop (no longer around) and here is the copy that was made for me. Front and back views are shown in addition to the name of the key that says "Corbin Russwin." The shop had it in stock and it worked. I had it stuck in a very safe place (bottom of my dresser :smile: ). Do any of these pics help??

Posted Image

Posted Image

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I "think" the 14N looks right!

But what about the Corbin Russwin I copy I had made? What type key was that?

#29 Foxcraft

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 11:04 AM

Looking again (and holding the key against those you put on) it's either the 10N or 14N. Now I'm thinking more to the 10N!!

#30 theopratr

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 11:09 AM

Corbin Russwin is just the full name of the company. The key you had made is the same exact blank.

To verify the identity of your blank, you could do measurements between the millings on the side of the key, and also observe the curvature on some of those cuts... often the difference between one blank and another is not it's location but the angle at which it is cut into the key. (Which is very hard to tell just by a picture - no depth perception.)

#31 BLK

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 11:11 AM

Get some clay, Play-Doh works great, and stick the tip of the key in far enough to get the profile and compare that to the pictures. You will then have an idea about which key it is. If you take it to a locksmith or locksmith shop to get a copy made, you will have the correct spacing to file your own bump key off of the copy. So get a couple copies made so that you can experiment with filing your own.
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#32 Foxcraft

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 11:22 AM

Looks like the jokes on me:brickwall:

Right on the top of the keys (above were you can't see on the numbers) are the numbers "13N". I never knew what that meant, until I looked at your pic.

AND it is a 13N!

There we go!! Thank you!!:bow:

So now how does this come into play for making/finding this online?

#33 Foxcraft

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 11:34 AM

Or I should say it's the A1011-13N. Knowing this, what is the next step? The views look alike from mine to the 13N.

BLK, knowing it's a 13N now, is the clay method still needed?

I want to thank everyone for their input and help.

#34 BLK

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 11:37 AM

BLK, knowing it's a 13N now, is the clay method still needed?


Put the Play-Doh back in the toy box and hope the ankle biters don't find out that you took it.
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#35 Foxcraft

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 11:44 AM

Or if one could find a Russwin 13N Depth and Space Key set that would work as well? Or just a russwin 13N set to the lowest would work?

#36 Foxcraft

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 12:17 PM

Or if one could find a Russwin 13N Depth and Space Key set that would work as well? Or just a russwin 13N set to the lowest would work?

#37 Foxcraft

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 01:34 PM

Not sure what happened there with double postings. Sorry.

I saw a video on Youtube with a guy showing how to make a bumpkey. Saying "cut all the way to the lowest. Now my question is that, if you did now know what the lowest was, how would you know how low to cut the key?