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HOWTO: File Down Tip And Shoulder


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#41 BLK

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Posted 06 April 2007 - 08:25 PM

Could someone please explain what exactly the minimal move. method is to me, and why you only cut back one of the two shoulders, thanks.


on a KW1 you would have to cut back both parts of the shooulder--the part on top and the part below the base of the key blade.

Minimal Movement--use the search function. There are at least 3 good explanations on this forum.
Bump it to the next level.

#42 Psilocybe

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 06:23 PM

If there is a better place for this, please kindly point me in the right direction, as I am new to these forums. I have a question related to this thread.

So, I filed my keys entirely by myself (didn't buy them), including the shoulder and tip. When I put them in the lock all the way (that it would normally go in), I can then push them in a little further. It's just enough that they stick in there, and won't pop out to the normal "all the way in" distance without releasing the tension on the key.

So the question is, did I file it down too much? Both keys work, but I'm wondering if it would really work better if I left more shoulder and tip on there.

Thanks for the help.

#43 Customer Support

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 06:28 PM

In my experience, it seems you actually do need a good amount filed off the tip \ shoulder. Sorry I don't have an exact measurement as we file each type of key to a different amount.

You also say a 'a little further' well I'd say my 'littler further' could be different than yours.

We always suggest just uploading a picture \ scan of the key and if you've got the original... the original.

Hope this helps some.

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For Order specific questions please use the 'contact us' link at the top of our store.


#44 Psilocybe

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 07:23 PM

Okay, so here are the images, assuming I don't screw up posting them. I've never posted images in a post, so if they're not there, give me a few to figure it out. I don't know how helpful they will be though, due to circumstances that I will explain below.

EDIT: yeah, I can't do it right, so for now you'll have to click on the thumbnail link to look at the full size pic.

Posted Image

NOTES:

1) The tip is filed down excessicely. This is due to me thinking that the reason it wasn't going in until the shoulder hit was the tip was still too long. The cause was actually 2.

2) This part was actually hitting the first pin. I had to file this down for the key to go in until the shoulder hit.

3) The shoulder is also filed down a little more than I originally planned, but it was a such a long process that I can't really remember why it happened. Anyway. . .

4) The head is different than the original, but trust me, it's for the same lock. For some reason the copy was made on a blank that looked different.

4) In case you're wondering, this dip has no purpose. I was just a little sloppy with the filing.

So the first key might be too :furious3: up for you to be able to come to any conclusions, but hopefully the second one will tell you something.

#45 theopratr

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 01:27 AM

When I put them in the lock all the way (that it would normally go in), I can then push them in a little further. It's just enough that they stick in there, and won't pop out to the normal "all the way in" distance without releasing the tension on the key.

So the question is, did I file it down too much? Both keys work, but I'm wondering if it would really work better if I left more shoulder and tip on there.


If they stay stuck in (past the normal position) without tension, they've been filed too much, as it indicates that the key has been filed the length of an extra pin. Such a key may still work, but more on the principals of pull out.

A key that has been properly filed for minimal movement should spring back to normal with no tension on the key; this indicates that when the key is fully pushed into the lock the pins are resting on the face of the peaks.

#46 Psilocybe

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 04:25 AM

Okay, cool. It pops back when I release the tension about 90% of the time, so I guess I'm right about at the limit.

The reason I ask this is I see videos of people bumping locks by hitting them a bunch of times while keeping tension on the key (or so it seems), so I thought maybe it should pop back out even with tension.

#47 theopratr

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 03:42 PM

Yeah... the videos are generally with easily bumped locked and perfectly made keys. The reality of the situation, as you know, is not quite the same.

If the key is filed JUST enough, then the pins never make it more than a tiny bit up the ramp, and thus even with some light tension applied it will "return"... the peaks are generally very steep, so it's more like the peak of the key it running into the pin, and opposed to the pin sliding up the side of it.

#48 cas

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 10:30 PM

Be sure not to mail it through the mail as this is a federal crime.

I have done a federal law search, but can not find any reference to such a prohibition. Do you know the reference/number?

By the way, I used my bumpkey.us KW1 key with the pull-out method... worked very well on a loose set in my hand... haven't been able to actually get it to work on a mounted set (yet?).

#49 theopratr

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 10:16 AM

I believe the law rests within the USPS codes. They refuse to ship anything that is classed as an "entry device", which is very vague and open to gross interpretation by law enforcement or postal authorities. Automotive jigglers fall under this category, and, according to most all reputable dealers of lockpicking tools, must be shipped by private courier, i.e. UPS, FedEx, DHL, etc.

Being unfiled, bump keys are simply classed as depth keys, which have been recognized by the USPS prior to the bump key craze as valid locksmithing tools that may be mailed.

#50 Customer Support

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 04:47 PM

I have done a federal law search, but can not find any reference to such a prohibition. Do you know the reference/number?

By the way, I used my bumpkey.us KW1 key with the pull-out method... worked very well on a loose set in my hand... haven't been able to actually get it to work on a mounted set (yet?).


Tension is usually the trick. You'll hear it time and time again but that's what it boils down to. In a hand, you've got much better control over how much tension you're actually putting on the key. When it's in a lock it could become harder (read: different) to find the 'sweet spot' for the right amount of tension.

I believe the law rests within the USPS codes. They refuse to ship anything that is classed as an "entry device", which is very vague and open to gross interpretation by law enforcement or postal authorities. Automotive jigglers fall under this category, and, according to most all reputable dealers of lockpicking tools, must be shipped by private courier, i.e. UPS, FedEx, DHL, etc.

Being unfiled, bump keys are simply classed as depth keys, which have been recognized by the USPS prior to the bump key craze as valid locksmithing tools that may be mailed.


Bingo. :bow:

Link Here for the exact law mentioned by theopratr

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#51 Rogue

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Posted 09 August 2007 - 07:13 PM

was playing with our HPC code cutter today and found out if you use a dime on it's edge between the shoulder and the guide it cuts a pretty good minimal movement key. This is for those of us luck enough to have a code cuter. :biggrin:
You have a kwikset knob lock and no dead bolt on your doors and you think you can keep me out... aww thats so cute.

#52 govt1911

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Posted 09 August 2007 - 11:21 PM

Do you think that'd work copying a key on my little Ilco 027A? I mean, if I take a uncut bumpkey and then space the blank offset the width of a dime, you think that'd be pretty much the same?
(I know, I know.....try it and find out) LOL I will give it a shot and report back here.

#53 Rogue

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Posted 09 August 2007 - 11:45 PM

principle should be the same i suppose
You have a kwikset knob lock and no dead bolt on your doors and you think you can keep me out... aww thats so cute.

#54 Gobias

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 11:43 AM

Why do you need to file down the shoulder and such?
ROUS's? I don't believe the exist.

#55 Gobias

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 01:44 PM

I'm so stupid, i found out, i didn't know there was multiple pages
ROUS's? I don't believe the exist.

#56 crossett

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Posted 28 September 2007 - 09:11 PM

I filed down the tip and the shoulder, but the key won't fit in the lock now. Could I have filed off too much?

#57 Rogue

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Posted 29 September 2007 - 10:31 AM

I filed down the tip and the shoulder, but the key won't fit in the lock now. Could I have filed off too much?


If you post a picture of the key we would be able to help
You have a kwikset knob lock and no dead bolt on your doors and you think you can keep me out... aww thats so cute.

#58 theopratr

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 01:18 PM

You probably filed off too much.

A key that "does not fit" in a lock is often caused by grotesque overfiling... when the key is inserted, the pins must "ride" up and down the ramps that make up the cut surface of a key. If the tip is filed to such a point that there is no ramp below the bottom of the first pin, the key will simply run into that first pin and be unable to bypass it.

Due to the vertical shape of the tip of a filed key, the front of the blade simply pushes into the first pin instead of pushing it up and out of the way.

Posted Image

Your key, then, has probably been filed too much. File the next attempt less, or, if you feel more comfortable, file the key along the existing plane so you don't run into problems like this. (i.e. file along the diagonal instead of straight up and down... the key still gets shorter, which serves your purpose.)

#59 deadstealth

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 05:27 PM

this being THE thread (its stickied) for learning how to correctly file the key, why is there not one single pic of an actual, real, filed, working, complete, minimal movement key????? Thats all this thread really needs anyway, one pic to show you this is what your key should look like...all the pages of txt about how wouldnt be needed if there was just ONE pic of a working minimal movement key on this thread. The info on how to bump is in the minimal movement and pull out method threads. all we need here is a picture. this thread is about how to file the key. why is there no real model for us to look at?

:brickwall::confused::brickwall::confused:

here are some pics of what i have done so far. i think i have the tip filed perfectly, but the other two cuts are bad since my file was too big. So maybe this will help someone see exactly how much they need to take off the tip.

Attached Files

  • Attached File  tip2.JPG   15.77KB   34 downloads
  • Attached File  key2.JPG   11.78KB   37 downloads


#60 bowman

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 08:28 PM

Well, we have one person who doesn't have to file the bottom of the shoulder on one key. Can we get a more definitive answer. The question again was: If we file the tip do we have to file both he upper ans lower part of the shoulder to make a good bump key or just the upper part?