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Cop took my keys


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#1 Guest_dayton1218_*

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Posted 25 February 2007 - 02:18 PM

Okay not sure if this was the right section to post I'm just sharing an experience of mine but Anyway, the other day I was driving home from work and ended up speeding a little through a round-a-bout for a couple loops and I got pulled over. He gave me a sobriety test and I passed, so he wanted to search me and my car for any drugs or paraphernalia in which he happened to find my keys which i kept in my car (5 key set)

So he asks me "Are these bump keys ?" I said yeah, I wasn't going to try and lie because I knew he already knew what they were so then he responds by saying "You know these are Illegal ?" and "I could arrest you and charge you with possession of burglary tools" at that time I got worried but remembered I hadn't filed the tips and shoulders yet since I just got them and I told him that, and that they were legal because of it.

So he pauses, goes back to his car and talks with his buddy then comes back and tells me with attitude "Sir, no bump key is legal regardless of modification, this is a potential burglary tool which can be used to break into my own house anyone possessing them should be arrested and charged but since I was having a good day I'm gonna give you a fine for speeding and a warning for they keys" .

So he kept my keys, which i waited for anxiously for 2 weeks to get. My guess is I just came across a prick of cop who doesn't like bump keys, but it was ultimately my fault for playing around in a round-a-bout but im ordering more and I'm gonna make copies this time :/

#2 rbb

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Posted 25 February 2007 - 03:01 PM

watch out when you make copys because the locksmith might try and take them! that is why i have not made copys yet

#3 Customer Support

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Posted 25 February 2007 - 04:14 PM

Interesting....

I'll have to talk this over with my lawyer. I've bookmarked the thread.

If you could message me (through Private message) the city\state that this happened in?

As always, I would suggest you speak with a lawyer as we are NOT able to give legal advice (we're not lawyers!).

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#4 BLK

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Posted 25 February 2007 - 06:08 PM

Okay not sure if this was the right section to post I'm just sharing an experience of mine but Anyway, the other day I was driving home from work and ended up speeding a little through a round-a-bout for a couple loops and I got pulled over. He gave me a sobriety test and I passed, so he wanted to search me and my car for any drugs or paraphernalia in which he happened to find my keys which i kept in my car (5 key set):/


I would get legal advice from a lawyer about the "search laws" and standard operating procedures of the local popo. You do not necessarily have to allow them to search you or your vehicle, in fact, you do not have to get out of your vehicle without a lawyer present in most areas.

Storing the bump keys in your car, not good.

So he asks me "Are these bump keys ?" I said yeah, I wasn't going to try and lie because I knew he already knew what they were so then he responds by saying "You know these are Illegal ?" and "I could arrest you and charge you with possession of burglary tools" at that time I got worried but remembered I hadn't filed the tips and shoulders yet since I just got them and I told him that, and that they were legal because of it. :/


Unmodified they are depth keys. Depth keys. Depth keys. Depth keys are not illegal. It would probably help if you had a full set of depth keys for each of the 5 that you had. It would be a more compelling argument in a situation like this. Of course, you might have to explain why you have depth keys.

So he pauses, goes back to his car and talks with his buddy then comes back and tells me with attitude "Sir, no bump key is legal regardless of modification, this is a potential burglary tool which can be used to break into my own house anyone possessing them should be arrested and charged but since I was having a good day I'm gonna give you a fine for speeding and a warning for they keys" . :/



Conferring with the partner is usually a pretty good sign that you are being intimidated by the popo. The fact that he called it a potential burglary tool also leads me to believe that he knew that he was on shaky ground and just trying to intimidate you. Shame on the popo! Bad popo!

Most front line officers know just enough about a lot of different stuff to be dangerous and that is how so many crooks get off on a technicality, popo thinks he can BS his way to get another arrest and messes it up because he was just a cocky SOB that didn't know as much as he thought he did, so a bonifide criminal gets off scott free because of it..

So he kept my keys, which i waited for anxiously for 2 weeks to get. My guess is I just came across a prick of cop who doesn't like bump keys, but it was ultimately my fault for playing around in a round-a-bout but im ordering more and I'm gonna make copies this time :/


I can believe he thought he was righteous in keeping your keys. I would make a copy of the ticket so you have his info and then I would get legal advice on how to get them back or at least make sure the prick shows a little more respect next time you meet.

And stop clowning in the turn about! You draw too much attention to yourself and you end up with no bump keys. AND, popo is going to be watching you now. Geez Louise.

Get copies made at Home Depot or Lowes, they have no clue.

9-11-01 ushered in a bunch of latitude in how local law enforcement can legally abuse your civil rights. You and I still have civil rights, we just have to work overtime to get the local authorities to allow us to exercise them. So, do your homework. Get legal advice from a good criminal lawyer that deals with defending criminals for a living. They will know how best to advise you on dealing with this situation.

:Steps down off his Soap Box:
:Promises to try to be nicer:
Bump it to the next level.

#5 theopratr

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Posted 25 February 2007 - 07:12 PM

I am not suggesting with my following commentary that you should have argued with the police, as that is almost always a bad idea. I do, however, agree with most everything that slick and BLK have said.

Unless they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that your bump keys were being used for illegal breaking and entering, in most areas, they are in no legal position to confiscate your keys, unless the local jurisdiction either a.) has specific laws outlawing the carriage of bump keys or b.) has a law that allows an officer to confiscate your crow bars, tire irons, screwdrivers, hammers and anything else that could potentially be used to break into someones home/office/bank vault/etc. They would definitely be very illegal if you were observed using or attempting to use them in any lock that didn't belong to you, without the consent of the owner, as they would then be classified as a burglary tool.

BUT AGAIN, this goes for absolutely anyone who has bump keys or is considering making them or purchasing them: CHECK YOUR LOCAL LAWS! What BLK said about the loss of civil liberties is no joke. If the authorities can come to even the foggiest conclusion that you're anything less than perfectly upstanding, they will generally do absolutely anything within their power, and often times a lot that's not supposed to be in their power, to make sure that your life is miserable. Don't get me wrong, the local police and I get along rather well, but today everyone is a terrorist until proven innocent, so watch yourself.

#6 BLK

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Posted 25 February 2007 - 07:17 PM

http://www.security....g_legal_mwt.pdf

Everyone should probably read this link before possessing bump keys. There are currently lots of loopholes and vagueness in the laws about bump keys. But there are plenty of Federal, State and Local Laws that one would need to look at to be sure that having and transporting bump keys is legal in your area.

Also, be aware that laws can change rapidly. The pocket knife with the 4 inch blade that I bought a few months ago is now illegal in my area. The law was recently changed to 3 inches max instead of 4 inches. Now I have to buy and new knife (droooool!!!).

:See I was nicer:
Bump it to the next level.

#7 Harleyd

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 09:45 AM

watch out when you make copys because the locksmith might try and take them! that is why i have not made copys yet

Home Depot makes all my copies with no problem. I dont do them all at once, i only have two keys copied at a time. That way i wont draw too much attention.

#8 sniper101

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 02:32 PM

Home Depot makes all my copies with no problem. I dont do them all at once, i only have two keys copied at a time. That way i wont draw too much attention.



yeah, there shouldnt be any problems with copying your keys at stores like: canadian tire, home depot, wal-mart, etc. because they are not professional locksmiths, they only know how to use the machine to copy keys for you. I have copied my keys at many different stores and there was never any problems with that. The closest the key cutter has ever come to being suspicous, is when he asked me what these keys are for, then i thought he knew they were bump keys, but then i told him they were for a cutom lock, and he said he was just wondering because the cuts on the kw10 key are very low, and this lock could be picked easily.

#9 Guest_dayton1218_*

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 07:15 PM

I'm amazed at the comments posted here, there's alot of great information here which I had absolutely no clue of before. I'd like to thank each and everyone who posted in here because every post was extremely help full and enlightening to me.

I've now taken a few small steps myself by calling the local police department and asking them myself on the law of bump keys and he gave me the same answer you guys did, he told me as long as the keys aren't modified to be actual working "bump keys" and were in fact depth keys then I had nothing much to worry about other than getting shifty eyes from police officers who may find them in my possession. Or if I was a certified locksmith then I would be able to legally own bump keys no questions asked.

So next I explained what had happened to me when I was stopped for speeding and the officer taking my depth keys. He asked for the name and badge number printed on the ticket which I gave to him and he told me that he would investigate the incident himself but that I shouldn't expect too much because I did break the law to begin with which got me pulled over in the first place and according to him, an officer will only do what is necessary to "Protect himself and the community" even if it means confiscating depth keys which could easily be made into bump keys. And if an officer has any reason to suspect that I or any person is up to no good he has the right to investigate/Ticket/fine a person possessing any kind of contraband including "Depth keys".

At the end of our conversation he explained that I had a small chance of getting my keys back if he is able to speak with the officer who ticketed me and get his reason for confiscating my keys in which he'll decide from there if I should get them back or not but as of the moment he believes their in the evidence room which will more than likely stay until after my hearing. Then he added this which I actually laughed at him for, he said "Depth Keys are like a gun, you only have to put bullets in an empty gun for it to become life threatening to someone, Depth Keys you only have to modify them to become life threatening to someone.." these cops are really weird and have confused me more than help me understand the situation even though it isnt all that just a little fine for speeding which im ok with its just WHY he took my keys..

So now I'm waiting to go to court to pay my fine and try to see what happens with getting my keys back. I'll post more information regarding the matter as soon as anything new happens. again, thank you all for your help. It was greatly appreciated.

#10 sniper101

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 10:27 PM

i hate how cops always take advantage of their authority whenever possible. Especially when you are not sure of your rights, and what they are actually aloud to do. Anyways good luck with getting your keys back, hopefully you do so that you wont have to wait for a new set.

#11 kilroyjc

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 06:56 AM

New Jersey Criminal Code

2C:5-5 Burglar's tools.

a. Any person who manufactures or possesses any engine, machine, tool or implement adapted, designed or commonly used for committing or facilitating any offense in chapter 20 of this title or offenses involving forcible entry into premises
1)Knowing the same to be so adapted or designed or commonly used; and

2)With either a purpose so to use or employ it, is guilty of an offense.

b. Any person who publishes plans or instructions dealing with the manufacture or use of any burglar tool as defined above, with the intent that such publication be used for committing of facilitating any offense in chapter 20 of this title or offenses involving forcible entry into premises is guilty of an offense.

The offense under a. or b. of this section is a crime of the fourth degree if the defendant manufactured such instrument of implements or published such plans or instructions; otherwise it is a disorderly persons offense.


Chapter 20 are theft and related offenses.

So. . . if you are in NJ:

-A fourth degree is punishable by a term in excess of 6 months (2C:1-4), while a disorderly person's offense (DP) is 6 months or less;

-If you possess burglar's tools which you did not make, it is a DP, but if you make your own, it is a fourth degree.
-If it is stupid, and it works, then it ain't stupid. . .

#12 seventhexile

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 12:20 PM

I highly recommend any of you to find this short clip and watch it.

BUSTED: The Citizen’s Guide to Surviving Police Encounters.

in it it clearly shows you how to legally deal with cop encounters, how cops are trained to trick you verbally and sometimes physically. - You do not have to do most of the things cops ask you to do and by doing them you subjugate yourself to further searches and freely give up your rights.

Just a good movie to watch and learn from.
Police are bound by very strict laws guiding what they can and can not do. Most of the time however, we dont know these laws and treat them as if they can do anything they please. Know the laws, know how NOT to give up your rights via ur actions or comments to the police..
:o)

that and knowledge is power.. and its kinda a funny / good movie for only being 1/2 hour long .. so go find it online .. rent it .. or something ^_^
.. maybe if you did had learned some of these tricks u wouldnt have lost ur keys?

"quick edit:
- I have police and swat handcuff keys on my key-chain..
three encounters I've had police try to take my keys saying it was unlawful for a civilian to possess these.. each occasion is dealt with differently.. one of the times i told them it was a gift from my uncle whos on swat.. i dont have an uncle on swat.. but the great thing about town and local police is they cant check that using there computer data base.. another time i told them i have them in-case i lose the keys to my handcuffs i uses during forplay.. ;o) .. so all in all it just depends on what u say.. im sure house hold keys cant be worse then handcuff keys ^_^

#13 Kristic

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 09:08 PM

I highly recommend any of you to find this short clip and watch it.

BUSTED: The Citizen’s Guide to Surviving Police Encounters.

in it it clearly shows you how to legally deal with cop encounters, how cops are trained to trick you verbally and sometimes physically. - You do not have to do most of the things cops ask you to do and by doing them you subjugate yourself to further searches and freely give up your rights.

Just a good movie to watch and learn from.
Police are bound by very strict laws guiding what they can and can not do. Most of the time however, we dont know these laws and treat them as if they can do anything they please. Know the laws, know how NOT to give up your rights via ur actions or comments to the police..
:o)

that and knowledge is power.. and its kinda a funny / good movie for only being 1/2 hour long .. so go find it online .. rent it .. or something ^_^
.. maybe if you did had learned some of these tricks u wouldnt have lost ur keys?

"quick edit:
- I have police and swat handcuff keys on my key-chain..
three encounters I've had police try to take my keys saying it was unlawful for a civilian to possess these.. each occasion is dealt with differently.. one of the times i told them it was a gift from my uncle whos on swat.. i dont have an uncle on swat.. but the great thing about town and local police is they cant check that using there computer data base.. another time i told them i have them in-case i lose the keys to my handcuffs i uses during forplay.. ;o) .. so all in all it just depends on what u say.. im sure house hold keys cant be worse then handcuff keys ^_^


Ha, I watched that video today because of your recommendation. Completely ridiculous. It has some good points, but the acting is the most b rated acting I've ever seen.

#14 BLK

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 09:38 AM

Ha, I watched that video today because of your recommendation. Completely ridiculous. It has some good points, but the acting is the most b rated acting I've ever seen.


Kristic "Ebert"

It is not about the acting. It is about the ideas and concepts being presented. Although, it would be really good to talk to an ACLU adviser or other attorney before you try any of this stuff.

Watch COPS and try to keep up with how many times the "perp's" civil rights are violated and how many times the popo uses intimidation and sneaky tactics to get people to give up their civil rights. It is an amazing show from that point of view.

I really do not like the ACLU or lawyers for that matter, but if you can use them to your advantage, why not? The popo is going to use every trick he knows to get you and me to give up our civil rights. The least we can do is be informed and protect ourselves. This would include, dayton1218, not putting ones self in a bad light in front of popo. Knowledge is our friend. Knowledge can keep us out of jail and help us keep our keys. We must know the laws governing our activities and, where possible, the tactics of law enforcement to side step our freedoms and rights.

Well, I think I need to get a new soap box...
Bump it to the next level.

#15 seventhexile

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 02:27 PM

I highly recommend any of you to find this short clip and watch it.

BUSTED: The Citizen’s Guide to Surviving Police Encounters.

in it it clearly shows you how to legally deal with cop encounters, how cops are trained to trick you verbally and sometimes physically. - You do not have to do most of the things cops ask you to do and by doing them you subjugate yourself to further searches and freely give up your rights.

Just a good movie to watch and learn from.
Police are bound by very strict laws guiding what they can and can not do. Most of the time however, we dont know these laws and treat them as if they can do anything they please. Know the laws, know how NOT to give up your rights via ur actions or comments to the police..
:o)

that and knowledge is power.. and its kinda a funny / good movie for only being 1/2 hour long .. so go find it online .. rent it .. or something ^_^
.. maybe if you did had learned some of these tricks u wouldnt have lost ur keys?

"quick edit:
- I have police and swat handcuff keys on my key-chain..
three encounters I've had police try to take my keys saying it was unlawful for a civilian to possess these.. each occasion is dealt with differently.. one of the times i told them it was a gift from my uncle whos on swat.. i dont have an uncle on swat.. but the great thing about town and local police is they cant check that using there computer data base.. another time i told them i have them in-case i lose the keys to my handcuffs i uses during forplay.. ;o) .. so all in all it just depends on what u say.. im sure house hold keys cant be worse then handcuff keys ^_^


Ha, I watched that video today because of your recommendation. Completely ridiculous. It has some good points, but the acting is the most b rated acting I've ever seen.


haha ya the acting was.. well.. we wont get into the acting..
some of the points it brings to light are however worth looking up and maybe reading a little more into.. ^_^ glad you watched the vid tho.
:)

#16 cal_gecko

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Posted 02 March 2007 - 12:18 AM

So, if the bumpkeys were not for burglary purposes, what were they for?

#17 Customer Support

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Posted 02 March 2007 - 12:48 AM

So, if the bumpkeys were not for burglary purposes, what were they for?



Gecko,

It's my personal opinion (not that of bump key .us, this forum, or legal advice) that in many states 'Burglary tools' is defined as _ANYTHING_ that is used for an actual burglary. Example, a pair of toe nail clippers could be a 'burglary tools' if they were used in a home invasion. It all depends on what the tool is used for.

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#18 theopratr

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Posted 02 March 2007 - 10:01 AM

Ironically, the file on a pair of nail clippers actually works rather well as a jiggler on cheap, four pin wafer locks, like those on strong boxes, so it's not as ridiculous as it sounds!

Crowbars are used to pry, and occasionally to smash something. Just because you're prying or smashing doesn't mean you're stealing something.

Bump keys open locks. Just because you're opening a lock doesn't mean you're stealing something.

#19 cal_gecko

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Posted 02 March 2007 - 05:06 PM

Sure, there are lots of other devices that COULD be used for burglary or b/e .. however, they all have a PRIMARY purpose - toenail clippers are for clipping your toenails, a crowbar is for removing hubcaps, nails, prying, etc.

What is the primary use of a bumpkey? To open a lock that the user of the key does not have the 'legitimate' key for. If the person using the bumpkey does not have the 'legitimate' key for a lock - there is a reason. That reason is probably that the user of the bumpkey is not supposed to be opening that lock.

#20 BLK

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 08:29 AM

Sure, there are lots of other devices that COULD be used for burglary or b/e .. however, they all have a PRIMARY purpose - toenail clippers are for clipping your toenails, a crowbar is for removing hubcaps, nails, prying, etc.

What is the primary use of a bumpkey? To open a lock that the user of the key does not have the 'legitimate' key for. If the person using the bumpkey does not have the 'legitimate' key for a lock - there is a reason. That reason is probably that the user of the bumpkey is not supposed to be opening that lock.


Assuming that anyone that has a bump key is, therefore, going to commit a crime is a really big assumption.
Bump it to the next level.